Halfway down the Danube

I miss my home town. Why would anyone want to move to the suburbs?

I think they'd do the same in Boston, but the sad fact is that after living here for over a year, I still don't know.

Strange place. I've never lived somewhere for so long yet felt so ... detached. Is it my workload, or is it Beantown? Anyone know this place?

I lived in Boston as a grad student for 1982-86, after growing up in a suburb (Westwood) and going to a private high school in a streetcar suburb (W. Roxbury). I can't compare the feel of the place to NYC as I've never lived there, but there are some obvious differences -- smaller population density in Boston, Boston being more of a "company town" with medicine and education, and the hard edge of Irish Catholic culture that has an effect on the mood of the place ranging beyond Irish Catholics.

I do remember a traffic altercation between me on a bicycle and a man in a white Mercedes -- when it got to a shouting match a passer-by jumped to my defense and it was pretty clear the others were going to be on my side on populist grounds (no one likes the driver of a white Mercedes).

I lived in Seattle for a year (1992-93) at the same sort of population density and found it a friendlier place -- Seattlites have something of a reputation for being busybodies, which I don't mind. The Boston/Seattle difference I noticed first was the mixed-race groups of kids on street corners in Seattle. But it's been a couple of decades, this may be less unusual in Boston by now.

What neighborhood are you living in? I was in Somerville near Harvard Square my first year, then Allston for a year and Jamaica Plain (the nice end between the pond and arboretum) for two.

"I miss my home town. Why would anyone want to move to the suburbs?"

Easy. Most other people are a royal pain in the %##. Why purposefully hang out with more of them that you haven't selected if it can be avoided?

I appreciate the guys jumping in after Deadeye-Dick, there, but the significance of 4 of them is simply that on a typical NYC platform at during a normal rush, you're more likely to have a higher density of folks who would jump in. You're also more likely to have a higher density of callers, gawkers and people who couldn't care less. I see no evidence that the denizens of that particular locale are any nicer (or less nice) than average.

Hey, Dave! I'm living in Cambridgeport, between Harvard and Central squares, closer to Harvard. Allston is too suburban, at least where you can plausibly walk to the business school. Which pretty much left Cambridgeport as the only other option.

Jamaica Plain is very nice; I have a friend who just bought a great house there. I'm not ready to buy, though, and so I'm letting the commute determine my location.

That said, it just feels less friendly than Brooklyn, or San Francisco; fewer (not none, just fewer) random conversations in cafes or bars, no real contact with the neighbors. Then again, I'm working fairly crazy hours, and spending a lot of weekends either in Philly or in the company of a beautiful young visitor from Philly. So I can't say what's cause and what's effect.

Bernard: If you believe that meeting new people offers more room for pain than pleasure, and that you need to carefully control your contacts in order to avoid the displeasure that random human contact brings, then you've got such different preferences from mine that I can't make any kind of intelligible response. It's like telling me that you like getting whipped. Great for you, but it makes no sense to me. As for New Yorkers being much friendlier than the denizens of other American cities, including Southern ones, well, all I can say is that my own personal experience overwhelmingly indicates that this is indeed the case. Of course, if one doesn't like meeting strangers in general, then you're not going to have many positive experiences with them, or much note the ones that you do.

"As for New Yorkers being much friendlier than the denizens of other American cities, including Southern ones, well, all I can say is that my own personal experience overwhelmingly indicates that this is indeed the case."

Hmmm well I can't refute that

I am not so very certain it is true :-)

but I can't obviously refute your breadth of cross-regional experience.

There's no getting around that I am sectionally biased and additionally I am really a quite nice fellow so I might be projecting that niceness onto my neighbors.

"If you believe that meeting new people offers more room for pain than pleasure, and that you need to carefully control your contacts in order to avoid the displeasure that random human contact brings, then you've got such different preferences from mine that I can't make any kind of intelligible response."

Not meeting new people, being jammed in with them after you've already met 'em. New experiences are all fine and dandy, but my time in NYC, Hoboken and inner-ring suburban NJ indicate that you rapidly run through the new and then find yourself stuck with a lot of the old. Me, I'm tired of it the 4th time I hear the neighbors have the same argument through the paper-thin walls. But you're right, de gustibus and all that. I'll simply note (not that you're unaware of it) that there appear to be more than a fair number who see it more my way than yours.

"It's like telling me that you like getting whipped." Plenty of that in NYC, too, to hear a couple of guys I used to know in the NG tell it. Frequented The Vault.

"As for New Yorkers being much friendlier than the denizens of other American cities" I was thinking more urban vs. the sub- and ex-urbs. Still, that's a pretty sweeping statement. I have a boss who continually reminds me of his 20 years of experience. I'm at pains to avoid pointing out that his 20 years covers a small fraction of one of the production datasets available to me. Doesn't mean his observations are incorrect, but he's missing quite a bit of data and he's probably biased, to boot.

My two cents -- and hey, it's my blog, or at least a third of it is -- regional differences in social interactions aren't about nicer or better, but what people as individuals bring to the table. Sometimes the silverware clashes, as with Bernard and the hive of the city, or me and the sparse, albino Northland. Fortunately (and unlike many), we both have been able to move to places that suit us better.

I also doubt that the innate sonofabitch rate is any higher or lower in Stoughton, Wisconsin than in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. They simply have different modes of expressing it.

And as for density, small towns, suburbs and countryside can be just as in each other's face as an apartment building. People knew me as my dad's kid across _counties_.

Incidentally, Bernard, I knew much deve-ier people in Madison. Pure David Lynch country (in fact, he used to hang in the area).

Yeah, I visited my b-in-law up there a while back, and I got the impression that Madison can be pretty funky. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I was merely pointing out that you can find quite a range of types in any area, not all of which will be to your liking. Different strokes for different folks, if you'll pardon the pun.

(Hmmnn. There's a topic for you. Mid-80s TV. Should be a goldmine.)

I prefer 1970s TV. Abe Vigoda still lives! (In fact, he turned 85 a few weeks ago.)

Noel sez:
"Then again, I'm working fairly crazy hours, and spending a lot of weekends either in Philly or in the company of a beautiful young visitor from Philly."

Nicer down here than it used to be, don't you think?

Philly's kinda growing on me. South Philadelphia kinda reminds me of Brooklyn-as-it-used-to-be, in all its dystopic glory, and Center City is totally redeemed by the cheap rents and Wawas. A sort of weird negative nostalgia, because I gotta come down in favor of Brooklyn's transformation, net.

And I like driving through Bucks County, the suburban strips filled with porn shops, diners, gas stations, and porn shops. I also like this little 'burb called Ambler. Cute.

Plus, the people in Philly are generally sociable, if sometimes too sociable. Like yelling comments from cars type sociable. Still, I forgive 'em that and the Eagles.

"Philly's kinda growing on me."

It _is_ the Sixth Borough after-all

Noel--

Bucks County's a weird place. You've got the whole Bristol area, where the whole area's economy is based on the fact that the Penna. Turnpike and I-95 don't have a proper limited-access-highway connection, with the result that one has to drive local traffic for quite a ways through this hole-of-a-truck-stop town to get from the one road to the other.

The rest of Bucks County is much more pleasant. Or so I'm told. My universe consists of Philadelphia and its western environs, not its northern ones. Agreed about South Philly and Center City. I recently moved out to the Main Line and it sometimes seems like Center City was just waiting for me to leave so that it could start to get hip.

Frank-- them's fightin' words.

i'm laughing at some of the comments here. allston suburban ! oh man, you need glasses!allston is not remotely suburban, it's as urban as it gets.someone else (from one of the rich "w" suburbs west of the city of boston)made 3 comments that stand out: 1) boston is low density city. ridiculous, the city of boston (cambridge,somerville,chelsea even more so)is absolutely one of the most densly populated urban areas in north america.in the top 5. boston has roughly the same population as seattle in 1/2 the area (48 sq. miles to 83 sq miles land area.)atlanta has 415,000 in 132 sq miles ! boston's population density is FAR higher than seattles (or obviously atlanta.) 2)no diversity in boston? kids of different races/ethnic groups not hanging out with each other? good grief,i grew up in the city (jamaica plain/mission hill)TRUST ME, that is a COMPLETELY baseless comment, but the guy who wrote it comes from a overwhelmingly upper-middle class (wealthy) white, suburban town so he wouldn't be exactly an expert on the subject. and if my hunch is correct, the private school he attended in the west roxbury neighborhood (not a street car suburb, it's a neighborhood of the city of boston) is roxbury latin school, a VERY prestigious place.you don't attend it to experience "diversity." i attended a public high school on beacon hill and a catholic high school in chinatown/bay village. the diversity of the student body was startling. i learned how to swear in cantonese,spanish and portugese and russian. boston is extremely diverse and multicultural. i've travelled and lived all over (all big cities, i've never lived in a suburb or small town)and boston (although it has issues like EVERY city)more than holds it's own in the diversity department. it's a pet peeve of mine: i get p'ed off whenever someone from a heterogeneous background (especially a wealthy segregated suburban town)acts like an expert on multiculturalism and diversity and looks down on,misinterpets and lectures others on the subject, especially people and places that walk the walk. and unless i'm badly mistaken, the demographics of boston are over-all far more diverse than seattle. seattle is a great city, i've been there and loved it, but it's not as diverse as other cities. that's not good or bad in my book, just different. and 3)this hackneyed idea that boston is heavily influenced by (OMG! irish catholics!)very ignorant. first, they are americans (not irish) and secondly boston (and new england in general) is one of the least religious places in north america. it's funny, boston is extremly and loyally liberal and is very diverse (btw: it's black population is proportionately 3 times higher than seattle or san francisco and twice the national average, and of course much,much higher than the surrounding suburban towns where all the out-spoken "diversity" experts live or come from)and yet left wing groups and individuals are constantly bashing it! it has a huge gay population and is the only place in america where gay marriage and full equal rights under the law are afforded to homosexuals yet many gays bash it and complain it should be more like ny or atlanta or someplace else. with friends like that who need enemies!

one final word: i'm white, working class and of mixed ethnic background (part spanish.) i was born and raised in a big city and live in one. that makes me a minority. most white americans (overwhelming) especially middle and wealthy are raised in suburbs.i've noticed HUGE cultural differences between people who were raised in a big city and those from suburban towns. big city people are generally FAR more down to earth,open and friendly and in my opinion many suburbanites seem to lack the casual people skills needed to live in a densly populated urban area like boston/cambridge/somerville. in my experience (and amoung conversations with people who have similar background as me) they come across as cold and snooty. unfortunately, the type of person you'll likely meet in abundance in boston are college students (overwhelmingly white middle to wealthy and from suburbs or small towns accross america)yuppies (ditto)and obnoxious high powered business people. it is these people that give boston, massachusetts and maybe new england it's undeserved reputation as being snooty and cold. talk with someone actually from a boston neighborhood, or somerville for example, they're cool as s*it, the salt of the earth. it's a shame that people who never bonded with any particular place or culture growing up have the need to go on a never ending quest to find the "perfect" place/society to live in and in the process to look down on others who don't suffer from the affliction.their shallowness doesn't add to the ambiance of a place, it sucks it out.i'd much rather have a new working stiff immigrant from russia or jamaica as a neighbor than a snooty college kid/yuppie with a ignorant attitude.

"'d much rather have a new working stiff immigrant from russia or jamaica as a neighbor than a snooty college kid/yuppie with a ignorant attitude."

Heh. I'd not care much either way, as long as he lives 300+ feet away from me. Along with everybody else....